Australia's chief spy Nick Warner listed the international rules based order as one of the threats Australia must contend with as the power of states rather than the rules that inform the behaviour of states is more important than it used to be. Former Director-General of the Australian Office of National Assessments Alan Gyngell goes one step further saying it is indeed over. So what does this mean for our international structures and alliances? Senior fellow at the United States Studies Centre and Peter J Dean, professor of war studies and pro Vice Chancellor (education) at the University of Western Australia joined Geraldine Doogue on ABC's Saturday Extra program to discuss the matter.